Transcript
Orlagh McCabe
Hi, I’m Orlagh.
Paul Giladi
Hi, I’m Paul.
Orlagh McCabe
Welcome to another episode of the Manchester Met Critical Pedagogy podcast series.
Paul Giladi
In today’s episode, we’ll hear from Kasia Nawratek and Emily Crompton, both based at the Manchester School of Architecture, and they will be talking about ways in which the use of queer theory and queer space can positively impact on international students studying architecture.
Kasia Nawratek
This is a Bakhtin-inspired and dialogic-inclusive discursive podcast. In reality, this is about being a good ally for LGBTQ+ people in an academic setting. My name is Kasia Nawratek. I’m a Senior Lecturer in the Manchester School of Architecture and I’m joined today by my colleague also from MSA, Emily Crompton.
Emily Crompton
Hi everybody, I’m Emily. I’m a Senior Lecturer at the School of Architecture as well, and I’m really interested in what queer theory means in space and looking at kind of ways of designing inclusively. So, that’s me!
Kasia Nawratek
My research interests run along two strands, both rooted in pedagogy. One strand explores the use of literary methods in architectural pedagogy and research, and the other discusses the climate crisis response in architectural education using post-human perspectives. And then we are here today to discuss and reflect on the Research Methods Workshop session, which I invited you to join.
We’re going to start with just explaining what the workshop was and the whole setting. ‘Research Methods’ is an elective module for first year of Master of Architecture students, which aims to introduce them to various research methods before they start their dissertation. The workshop uses literary and linguistic methods in architectural modes of investigation. The dialogic and polyphonic approach informs the workshop making inclusivity and negotiation key elements of the working environment.
All tasks and final assignment are group work – this is in recognition of the collaborative nature of architectural practice. The idea of polyphony originated from Bakhtin’s readings of the literary works of Fyodor Dostoevsky. ‘Polyphony’ is a term borrowed from music and was used by Bakhtin to read Dostoevsky’s works as containing multiple voices and perspectives with their own importance within the novel and able to speak for themselves, sometimes even against the author, highlighting the potential of tension as a source of deeper understanding.
I invited you [Emily] to do a short presentation for my students before a task they engage with later in the day, which was a photographic project. Their task was to photograph our schools building to reveal it as a space of mystery, wonder, danger and queerness. That’s why Queer spaces were the topic of your presentation. Would you like to maybe say a couple of words about that?
Emily Crompton
Yeah. So I was invited by Cassia to do a kind of short introduction to Queer Space, and it’s a concept that the students are really unfamiliar with. I kind of got back to basics and looked at what the word ‘queer’, focusing on where that comes from and how it’s been reclaimed by LGBT communities to a certain extent, and then use the LGBT Centre, which I’ve worked on for many years, as a kind of built example of potentially a queer space.
But we also looked at ‘queer’ in terms of the meaning of ‘kind of odd’ or ‘dangerous’ or ‘different’ as well. It was really interesting to see their reactions from that as well.
Kasia Nawratek
Yes, because it’s important to mention that the majority of students don’t speak English as their first language. I think that they were all international. And for many, an open discussion about queerness in an academic setting was something they never experienced before. Our aim, therefore, was to normalize the language of LGBTQ+ issues and demonstrate how this perspective can be and is used in research.
Emily Crompton
Yeah. I guess it wasn’t me just coming out for the sake of coming out and being visible. But this was using queer theory and the kind of concept of queer as a methodology or as a way of starting a project or a starting point: ‘being other’ somehow. And I think the students kind of caught onto that and it was a safer environment then to talk about that.
Kasia Nawratek
Yes. And it was only possible because I think that there were a couple of conditions that had to be met. So first of all, I already had a relationship with students and the dialogic principal in the studio, in our workshop, combined with a focus on language, allowed me to discuss the idea of difference based on culture and language as something that should be acknowledged in an academic setting.
It wasn’t a new idea for them: very often international students with different cultural and language background somehow feel that they have to cut off that identity and somehow conform to a very idealised model of the student that we expect them to perform. And they kind of don’t want to talk or acknowledge their own culture and language.
But when we kind of make space for it, they start to be more accepting of other identities as well.
Emily Crompton
And I think that’s a really good point, and your explanation of…
Kasia Nawratek
Polyphony.
Emily Crompton
Polyphony, sorry, yes! Polyphony ties in so well with queerness, and with queer theory. You know, if someone writes down the definition of queer theory, we’re all kind of screwed because it’s so difficult to define. And it means different things to different kinds of research, different kinds of methodologies, and actually showing students that there isn’t a one definition for this kind of thing really enabled them to say, ‘okay, well, I’m going to define it in this way, or I’m going to use it in this way in their later work in the photography section’.
Kasia Nawratek
So in a way, including LGBTQ+ people in the discussion is simply taking the dialogic polyphonic principle further to enrich the discussion. So as a result, queerness is normalized and validated. Just another perspective that needs to be acknowledged and included in the discussion. It’s not something special. It somehow becomes one of the categories maybe, or characteristics that define people, and it’s just one of them.
And I think that felt very safe to do that in the setting both for us and for students.
Emily Crompton
Definitely. I think as the person who is being invited to that space, it was a group of students I’ve never met. Obviously, I knew Cassia, but I’d never met them before and I don’t think like some of them might not have known I was LGBT, you know, that wasn’t really the focus of it. It was more that I was sharing it as a way of looking at the world.
And maybe some of them knew, and maybe from the story about Caroline being my partner and, you know, they might have picked up on it, but it might pass some of them by it. And that made it really interesting, I think.
Kasia Nawratek
Yeah, because suddenly, you know, particularly in the light of the podcast that you just recorded it, when you talk about, you know, about coming out to students, that was not part of the conversation and it didn’t have to be. But yet, that allowed us to kind of widen the field. And I think particularly if we think about those students, quite a majority of them come from come from countries which do not allow any discussion about those issues.
So being able to kind of open the discussion in this direction I felt was very valuable.
Emily Crompton
Oh, absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. It might have meant something to the students, and we can’t even know the full extent of what it meant to them. I think that’s got power and it really is. That’s great education, I think.
Kasia Nawratek
And then reflecting on how it contributed to that course itself and to that assignment, I think that they understood very well that our polyphonic approach and dialogic approach forces everybody to constantly negotiate and make space for other people. This is in part of how my own practice of positioning myself here as an ally.
What it means is to follow the polyphonic and dialogic principle by sharing my platform with LGBTQ+ colleagues.
Emily Crompton
Yeah, and it was one of the first times I even thought about using kind of queer ideas in the teaching of architecture in that way. So it was really enlightening for me as well and enabled me to do some more reading and yeah, go further with my own research, which was great.
Kasia Nawratek
So, let’s see what we will come up with next! Thank you.
Emily Crompton
Thanks.
Paul Giladi
Wonderful stuff!
Orlagh McCabe
That was great. I enjoyed that. And, you know, I think some of the key things that just covered so much. There were so many things that we could talk about right now around internationalization and the experience of international students around sharing our own cultural approaches around norms and values around space and place. So, it was just lovely.
Orlagh McCabe
What did you think?
Paul Giladi
I mean, in terms of the dynamics of things, it’s so interesting because there is the research method component as workshopping how to train up students at master’s level to understand building design, and then there’s the urban space and building space in general through the use of queer theory dimension. That’s fascinating: it’s also the use of Dostoyevsky because we all know he’s a really interesting writer, because he’s also basically a philosopher, which helps for folks like me!
Polyphony is really fascinating because the idea of actually thinking about how inclusive language works for the purpose of not just simply allyship. And I think Kasia herself provides a really exemplary way of being a constructive ally and a real ally for LGBT folk. The way in which polyphony can be used to normalize LGBTQ language, particularly expressions like ‘queer’ for students whose first language isn’t English necessarily, and invariably students who come from countries which criminalize homosexuality and queerness itself, is especially helpful.
So, thinking about how to use polyphony as not just an academic tool, but actually as an imperative social justice tool is well worth thinking about here. I wish I could actually do this research method class myself. I think I’ll get a lot out of it!
Orlagh McCabe
Yeah, and it was really powerful. And then with my sociological lens, I just want us to take a step back and not just think about this experience here.
Paul Giladi
Yes. Good.
Orlagh McCabe
Because actually, if you’re thinking about polyphony as an approach, it’s used beautifully here as a collaborative, critical reflection of practice: to hear two colleagues having great and deep discussions about how they approach their teaching and but also not just in a one-off way, the conversation was iterative.
They built upon each other’s practice. They had conversations about how one another was doing something. And then the other colleague then said something different about that approach, and they ended it beautifully because they said: ‘let’s see what we will come up with next’. Yeah, it was so collaborative. I thought it was fab. And so both from a student perspective and that disciplinary kind of point of view, but also from a kind of staff development, a co-development and a co constructed practice perspective as well.
So yeah, it’s just great, fabulous stuff!
Paul Giladi
I mean as well, just to complement everything you said, the idea of constantly negotiating and making space as a never-ending cycle of self-development I think is really, really interesting because it also contributes to all of those critical enterprises that are anti-naturalization, anti-ideal theory. And I think another major take-home point, based on what Kasia and Emily were speaking about, was this awareness of how all these kinds of cultural hegemonic forces that come from English being the first language or the Global North as having a type of primacy over the Global South in university contexts that creates alienating pressures on international students that are formally similar, at least in the ways that, say, heteronormative structures alienate queer folk. So that’s why I was thinking there is so much interconnectivity between this idea about LGBT friendly-language using ‘queer’ as a category for transforming social schemes themselves: at the heart of what Kasia and Emily are talking about is the need for pedagogy that is rooted in care for vulnerable communities and that’s something which should be celebrated and normalized across the board, not just in the humanities, but crucially, we see it also in STEM subjects like architecture, which is great.
So over to you, Orlagh, now.
Orlagh McCabe
Yes. So it’s just really to end and say join us next time for some more adventures in critical pedagogy.
Paul Giladi
Bye for now.
Orlagh McCabe
Bye everyone.